This is the fourth post in a series of five. Here are parts one, two, and three.
- Semantics
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The meaning or the interpretation of a word, sentence, or other language form
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The study of the relationships between various signs and symbols and what they represent.
- Minority
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The smaller in number of two groups forming a whole.
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A group or party having fewer than a controlling number of votes.
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An ethnic, racial, religious, or other group having a distinctive presence within a society.
Let me introduce you to two friends of mine.
S is 23 years old. He has dark skin, likes to smile, and almost always has 5 O’ Clock shadow. He comes from the southernmost state of a country which is described as either developing or third world. He came to the United States on a student visa when he was 18 years old. While he was able to get one small scholarship, his family still had to gave him their entire life savings to cover the costly tuition in the hope that S would one day secure a well paying job and take care of his siblings and parents. He is now in the process of applying for US residence and works as a computer programmer for a local technology firm here in San Diego. When asked if he has experienced racism here in the United States, S replies that he has experienced nothing which compares to the discrimination he suffered in his home country because his skin is darker, he is from the South, and he did not speak the official national language well. S now speaks flawless English and his accent is hardly noticeable.
N is 25 years old. He is shorter than most women he meets at the bars. Like S, he also has dark skin and also a big smile. He comes from the southernmost state of a country which is described as either developing or third world. He came to the United States when he was 19 years old. He did not know what to expect from the United States, but knew he did not want to be trapped in the same small village which has caused his family so much suffering. Upon arriving to the United States he began working a blue collar job and taking various adult ed. classes at night. One day while talking to his family back home, he mentioned that he would like to take classes at a technical trade school. The next day his family sent him their entire life savings and he enrolled. Two years later he began working as a database specialist at the same technology firm where S works. When asked if he has experienced racism here in the United States, N replies that he has experienced nothing which compares to the discrimination he suffered in his home country because his skin is darker, he is from the South, and he did not speak the official national language well. N now speaks flawless English and his accent is hardly noticeable.
S and N are now very close friends. S calls himself a moderate liberal whereas N is a staunch conservative. When S and N tell people they meet at bars what they do, N is almost always upset by their reaction. When S says he is a programmer, it is accepted without a blink, but when N says he is a database specialist, the reaction is utter shock. Some White liberals go as far as to reach out and touch N’s shoulder and offer their congratulations that he has come so far in life. S is offered nothing more than a slight smile.
N is often referred to as a minority, but S has never once been called a minority. N cannot stand the sympathy offered to him because he is considered a minority even though he comes from the same circumstances as S. He is paranoid that others might think he was hired because of his ethnicity even though he is the most capable person in his department. He hates knowing that his children will be called minorities and will be treated like minorities while S’s children will be expected to perform as well, if not better, than the average American.
S is from a small village in Kerala, India. N is from a small village in Chiapas, Mexico.
To be continued …
Hmmm. 😕
“N is often referred to as a minority, but S has never once been called a minority. N cannot stand the sympathy offered to him because he is considered a minority even though he comes from the same circumstances as S”. — OSO
Hmmm. I am just going to shoot straight. Even though N doesn’t want sympathy….he is still considered a minority. Let’s face it…..the Civil Rights Act was passed in 1964…….40 years ago.
One way to look at Affirmative Action is to think of it as a system to balance out what happened approximately 40 years ago and more.
Let’s face it…..discrimination does exist. In fact, their is a class action lawsuit going on with Boeing Aircraft. Minorities are suing the company because of poor leadership and to have the company evaluated for abusing the “good ol’ boy system”.
An artist here in Kansas works for Boeing. He told me the other day that he will never be a manager because of the color of his skin. That’s sad, if it is true. Luckily we have a judicial system where witnesses can be called and evidence can be reviewed.
We need something in place to be sure that diversity is enhanced.
If people acted the way they are supposed to…..we would not need laws. Unfortunately, people are discriminatory. People do choose members of the same race to fill “certain favored” positions within their company structure.
I am a minority. I have heard people say that I got this or that position because of the color of my skin.
I say, “Not”! It is because I am competent. And I am. I swear, sometimes some people will find an excuse to make themselves feel better. I say ignore him and tell them to go suck an egg. hee hee.
But in reality……….if those who are reading this entry, truly think that the past effects of discrimination prior to the Civil Rights Act, are settled and “up to par”. I would like to know how they come to that conclusion.
There are many parts in the midwest that are still needing to catch up to larger markets such as New York. Hell, even some parts of the southeastern part of the U.S. can be backward ass.
When the rest of the nation catches up to embracing diversity, then, and only then should we re-evaluate the situation. This is just my humble opinion. 🙂
i dont understand how the dude from kerala is never called a minorty. i’m from kerala and all anyone calls me is “minority”. even my parents. you’re telling me S has never walked into a room and, noticing hes the only non-white in the room, be referred to by friends as “the minority report”. maybe S doesnt know what the word means? thats not likely, tho, since kerala has a 100% literacy rate. durty south!
hey, what happened to my avatar? WTF?!?! I used the same email address…Damn racist avator, it has it out for Mexicans!!!
I’ll chime in from the nerd world – perhaps reaction people show is related to the job description they give. Let me explain. Computer programmers are common. I’ve worked with plenty that had dark skin. However, a database specialist typically implies more experience and seniority. It also usually comes with a much higher salary than code-monkey. I have never worked with a db specialist (usually architect, perhaps our definitions of specialist are different) that was younger than 35. It could just be a matter of numbers.. I’ve worked with, or known, 10’s of programmers. DB folks I can count on one hand.
Indians (imports or yanks of Indian decent) in IT are a common thing. I’ve met a grand total of one Mexican-American in IT. Indians have the whole math-education push, so I imagine a good part of that is responsible, but the numbers are still strange. As a side note, I know zero Indian lawyers, but 6 of Mexican decent.
The short answer is, I have never met a 25 year old db specialist. Let alone one that was Mexican-American.
For the record, since it is an easy step to make the logical connection that since I am Mexican, I have children, I thought it important to make clear that the ‘my children’ statements above are meant to be taken figuratively, I currently have no children. 😉
“So affirmative action, while making everybody feel better, postpones the real talk on the real issues, the real problems. A merit based view of the world puts the problems directly in front of us to see. And recognizing it is the first step in fixing it…Conservatives, like it or not, are one step ahead of liberals”.
–HispanicPundit
I don’t think that affirmative action just makes people feel better. It helps balance things out until most of the ‘old thinkers’…… the ‘older crowd’ who grew up with biases and grew up with the mentality that minorites are beneath them…….start to die off.
Again……….if people acted the way they are supposed to…..we would not need laws.
Fact of the matter remains that the Act was passed only 40 years ago. We are making progress. But before you do a complete overhaul with affirmative action……….one must take a look at company demographics. The good ol’ boy system still exists……..if it were not for affirmative action………the good ol’ boy network would be more rapid.
–DD
“In the climate of the past, when racism was clearly enough to stop someone from going to school, you might have avoided this logical connection, but in today’s climate, most people realize that although there is racism, there isn’t enough to stop someone from going to school. So affirmative action, and all the other race based solutions liberals promote, reduces to nothing but handicap points, and when you fight for handicap points for a group of people, people start to assume you are, well, handicapped”.
–HispanicPundit
Right, there isn’t enough to stop someone from going to school.
It is my understanding that the object of Affirmative Action was to eliminate past and current discrimation.
I think things are progressing, but the good ol’ boy network still exists and is very real.
Laws are in place so that school administrators, businesses, employers, and yada, yada, yada will know that violating same is against the law. If they violate the law, then they know they will have to suffer the consequences.
–DD
“The liberal victim view of the world, especially in today’s climate, does two things that directly hurt minorities.
1. It takes away some of the personal merit earned by making it on your own”.
–HispanicPundit
And who has the minority interest at heart? The liberal? Nay. Are the liberals going to ensure that colleges encourage diversity? Are the liberals going to ensure that employers are not discriminating? Are the liberals going to make sure that theaters, clubs and local businesses are not participating in discrimination? Where are the liberals? Are they an authority? Who puts things in check and balance?
The law does. And we use the law and blow the whistle when we see injustice. If it weren’t for affirmative action there would be “NO RECOURSE”.
The law helps to restore balance. That is why we need affirmative action, to prevent racist bastards from doing what they are doing.
And as far as your analogy and strong belief that “liberals” are not helping minorities………..well I sort of see where you are coming from HP.
It is my conviction that we need to go through a little bit of stretch yet before things are somewhat balanced. So “until” things are balanced…… you and me, need to endure some disappointment. We need to press on towards the goal and not let liberal “sneers” affect us. They are acting that way because they want and need to feel superior. We minorities need to deal with that until things are somewhat fair and balanced.
If tables were turned around……..and when minorities become the majority………the “white” race may need affirmative action.
Again…..it was just 40 years ago that minorities could not even share a public restroom. Even after the Act was passed……things didn’t change right away. It took a while for the smoke to clear and enforcement to take place.
But there is hope………..as our population grows and as the racist bastards die off, things should be on the up and up.
Too bad we do not live in an idealistic world. 😉
–DD
DD,
I think the whole ‘there is still enough racism out there to justify affirmative action’ is, to put it bluntly, a bunch of bullshit. Anybody who has been on college campuses recently realizes that colleges bend over backwards to get minorities into schools. They even create programs like the one Oso was involved in. I have friends that grew up in the
ghettoinner cities that had their whole education paid for them because they were minorities and where they came from.In todays culture, any racist who is purposely trying to keep minorities out would be easily identified, and quickly removed from any campus.
So please, spell it out for me DD, do you honestly think that there are racists on college boards that truly want to keep minorities out? Yes or no?
If you answer yes…I got a bridge to sell to you.
Dude, I am Republican remember? You really got to fix that avatar, we Republicans are not very comfortable presenting ourselves as the opposite sex in public!!! 🙂
Before I open up a can of “whoop ass” on ya, HP. Are we talking about affirmative action in a general sense as I described or in an educational setting? 😕
I am discussing affirmative action in the broad, general sense. 😉
To keep things focused, lets just discuss it in an educational sense.
And please, give me all the whoop ass you can…like Walter Williams, “You can treat me like a white person[one that doesn’t receive
handicap pointsaffirmative action]. Ask hard, penetrating questions.”“To keep things focused, lets just discuss it in an educational sense”.
–HP
Ok……..but to be fair, Oso said this:
“S and N are now very close friends. S calls himself a moderate liberal whereas N is a staunch conservative. When S and N tell people they meet at bars what they do, N is almost always upset by their reaction. When S says he is a programmer, it is accepted without a blink, but when N says he is a database specialist, the reaction is utter shock. Some White liberals go as far as to reach out and touch N’s shoulder and offer their congratulations that he has come so far in life. S is offered nothing more than a slight smile”.
–Oso
He is talking about an employment setting here. Maybe I am confused here. 😕 And……that may be where I was tempted in doing my “shot gun” method, since the odds would be in my favor naturally.
Soooo, you want to minimize this discussion from here on out and focus on education ONLY, am I right?
Yes…for the second time. 🙂
Come on DD, don’t second guess yourself now, give it to me on an educational setting. I want all the whoop ass you can give.
I promise to be nice. Not because you are a minority either, simply because your a girl. 😉 (Hoping that will provoke her enough to get her to completely speak her mind)
I can whoop your ass better if you allow me to debate this matter in the whole, broader sense……not just a portion of affirmative action.
I take it you can’t handle the “whole” thing, right? If you can’t talk about it in it’s entirety, please just admit it.
–DD
“Anybody who has been on college campuses recently realizes that colleges bend over backwards to get minorities into schools. They even create programs like the one Oso was involved in. I have friends that grew up in the ghetto inner cities that had their whole education paid for them because they were minorities and where they came from”.
–HP
This is happening in the INNER CITIES right? Because I have never heard of this before. This is the first time I have heard of colleges bending over backwards.
Even so……………..
…….don’t you think inner city kids need this?
It sounds to me that those who have a problem with “help” and those who view this as a “handicap”, are possibly the same individuals who have “machismo” problems.
Lastly, for the second time, if tables were turned around……..and when minorities become the majority………the “white” race may need affirmative action as well.
I can whoop your ass better if you allow me to debate this matter in the whole, broader sense……not just a portion of affirmative action.
I’ll take your word for it. 😉
This is happening in the INNER CITIES right? Because I have never heard of this before. This is the first time I have heard of colleges bending over backwards.
You need to spend more time on college campuses. I have been on several, even prestigious ones (USC, UCSD etc) for the last 10 years, and it is a fact that colleges bend over backwards to try and admit more minorities. Not just colleges either, but student loan programs. I can name you scholarship after scholarship that will pay for part of your schooling, if not all of it, if you are a minority. I have a friend of mine that got her bachelors degree from USC in Music, who had her whole tution, room and board, school supplies, and even part of her car payment paid for her by a scholarship. On top of that, she didn’t even have the highest grades in her highschool class, yet she was accepted at one of the most prestigious universities in southern california (USC).
It is a fact of our time that the problem in getting minorities into universities is not at the university level, it is primarily at the cultural level (and public education level, VOUCHERS BABY!!!).
Even so……………..
…….don’t you think inner city kids need this?
Don’t confuse things here, DD. I am not arguing against ‘affirmative action’ based on income. If you were making the argument that there should be some type of affirmative action for those living in poverty, that would be a whole different discussion. But you’re not, you are supporting affirmative action based on race. So unless you are making the argument that all Mexicans are poor dishwashers and house cleaners, you need to make a distinction between the two when talking about affirmative action.
It sounds to me that those who have a problem with “help” and those who view this as a “handicap”, are possibly the same individuals who have “machismo” problems.
If your going to say that, than I’ll respond in kind. And say that those that have no problem with affirmative action based on race have low dignity, and self respect. 😉
Lastly, for the second time, if tables were turned around……..and when minorities become the majority………the “white” race may need affirmative action as well.
I wonder what your opinion is on why Japanese, Jews, and even Indians don’t need affirmative action to succeed? They, like us Mexicans, are a minority group, and overall easily identifiable too. Are you ready to argue that the racism prevelant in society that justifies affirmative action only discriminates against Mexicans, but not Indians too?
Like I said earlier DD, spell it out for me. Give me straight forward yes or no answers. I want to flush this victimology out of you, it is destructive, and an ugly way to see yourself.
Man, if I didn’t have to work on a paper on Du Bois’ notion of “double consciousness” I would have a lot more to post on the issue of affirmative action, access for underrepresented minority students (blacks, Latinos and Native Americans), and campus climate for URM’s.
Excuses, excuses. Bring it on baby!!! I can take two girls on at a time easily. 😉
I can whoop your ass better if you allow me to debate this matter in the whole, broader sense……not just a portion of affirmative action.
–DD
I’ll take your word for it.
–HP
Just wanted to relish in your concession.
–DD
……I have a friend of mine that got her bachelors degree from USC in Music, who had her whole tuition, room and board, school supplies, and even part of her car payment paid for her by a scholarship. On top of that, she didn’t even have the highest grades in her highschool class, yet she was accepted at one of the most prestigious universities in southern california (USC).
–HP
And so did this friend of your become a productive member of society? Is she doing well for herself? If so, then this is good. Again, the purpose of affirmative action is to encourage diversity. It’s not like all minorities get a free ride based on being a minority. I certainly didn’t get a free ride.
–DD
It is a fact of our time that the problem in getting minorities into universities is not at the university level, it is primarily at the cultural level (and public education level, VOUCHERS BABY!!!).
–HP
Yes, it is at the cultural level, many 1st generation Mexicano’s are not aware of such programs you speak of. Why is that? I haven’t even heard of these free ride programs. Do minorities have to be considered “poverty level” in order to get into these types of programs? School me on this.
–DD
Don’t confuse things here, DD. I am not arguing against ‘affirmative action’ based on income. If you were making the argument that there should be some type of affirmative action for those living in poverty, that would be a whole different discussion. But you’re not, you are supporting affirmative action based on race.
–HP
I’m not the one confusing things around here, HP, you are taking one small portion of affirmative action and I am defending it in it’s entirety. I’m sorry if you are misunderstanding me.
–DD
So unless you are making the argument that all Mexicans are poor dishwashers and house cleaners, you need to make a distinction between the two when talking about affirmative action.
–HP
I am not making the argument that “ALL” Mexicano’s are dishwashers and so forth……I am simply trying to defend the purpose of affirmative action in the first place, which was to eliminate past and current discrimination.
Can you prove to me that discrimination does not occur in colleges? If affirmative action is done away with in the educational setting……what guarantee you can offer that will prevent abuse when it comes to colleges accepting minorities?
–DD
If your going to say that, than I’ll respond in kind. And say that those that have no problem with affirmative action based on race have low dignity, and self respect.
–HP
Again, “you” will respond in that manner. How would others feel that you are speaking on behalf of them.
Again, I am for those who are in the minority group class. This includes all races. If there comes a day when the white race becomes a minority………they should receive the same type of “recourse”.
–DD
I wonder what your opinion is on why Japanese, Jews, and even Indians don’t need affirmative action to succeed? They, like us Mexicans, are a minority group, and overall easily identifiable too. Are you ready to argue that the racism prevelant in society that justifies affirmative action only discriminates against Mexicans, but not Indians too?
–HP
I think all minority group classes should be protected.
Quote:
‘In the 1960s, many Jews and African-Americans sought to forge alliances based on this common history. Jews were in the forefront of the struggle for civil rights. We cherish the image of Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel, marching alongside Dr. Martin Luther King’.
–DD
Like I said earlier DD, spell it out for me. Give me straight forward yes or no answers.
–HP
I will give you straight forward answers when you give me straight ones as well.
–DD
I want to flush this victimology out of you, it is destructive, and an ugly way to see yourself.
–HP
Victimology?
I am just watching out for the minority group. What is wrong about that? You do know that there will always be a victim……..sort of like Saddam Hussein and his genocide practices towards the Shiite Muslims.
But we won’t go there, will we?
Damn, HP……..I will let you have the last word tonight…….just for tonight only. Hee hee. Then I will be fresh and alert to whoop that ass of yours again. lol! Buenas noches.
🙂
I couldn’t help it.
HP: In todays atmosphere, it is a self evident fact that universities bend over backwards to get more minorities enrolled.
If this is truly the case, then why are most underrepresented minority students in higher education not enrolled in 4-year colleges or universities, but in two-year community colleges? I don’t believe institutions of higher educations are “bending over backwards” to get minorities enrolled. The projections for population growth in the next 20 years or so show that the number of URM’s in higher education will increase, but it will still fall short of reaching parity.
There may be outreach programs like the one Oso was involved in, but such programs are on the chopping block when it comes to budget cuts, at least in California.
Yes, HP….please answer Cindylu’s question. I’m curious to know. 😉
……I have a friend of mine that got her bachelors degree from USC in Music, who had her whole tuition, room and board, school supplies, and even part of her car payment paid for her by a scholarship. On top of that, she didn’t even have the highest grades in her highschool class, yet she was accepted at one of the most prestigious universities in southern california (USC).
–HP
And so did this friend of your become a productive member of society? Is she doing well for herself? If so, then this is good. Again, the purpose of affirmative action is to encourage diversity. It’s not like all minorities get a free ride based on being a minority. I certainly didn’t get a free ride.
–DD
Hello Cindylu,
If this is truly the case, then why are most underrepresented minority students in higher education not enrolled in 4-year colleges or universities, but in two-year community colleges?
Have you seen ‘underrepresented minority students’ average grades coming out of highschool? There not equal to ‘represented minority students’ grades. It is my belief that the problem in universities is not a problem in universities, but a problem in highschool and before(That’s why I fight for vouchers so much).
For the record, I dropped out of highschool as well. I too did some time in community college (I have my GED). Granted, my experience is limited, but most (all?) of my friends growing up, both in the ‘inner cities’ of California (Compton, Ca) and the south part of Texas (McAllen, Edinburg, Dona) where it is predominantly Hispanic, didn’t graduate highschool either. The people that did (not my friends, but aquantences), had low grades, and the ones that had decent to high grades (the nerds, lol) got accepted to some of the best universities in the country.
The positions are there, we just need to reach out to them.
I don’t believe institutions of higher educations are “bending over backwards” to get minorities enrolled. The projections for population growth in the next 20 years or so show that the number of URM’s in higher education will increase, but it will still fall short of reaching parity.
What more can universities do, pray tell? They create programs like the one Oso was in, thereby sending rich white kids (did your mother approve?) to some of the most crime infested areas of the state (btw, they never went to Compton!!). They have tutorring centers, mentor programs, etc, in fact, the more prestigious the university, the more they seem to put an effort in getting more minorities. What more can they do?
But here, lets assume for the moment that your right. That universities, because of Arnold, have hard budget cuts, and completely eliminate all minority programs. Even if that is true (which it’s not, but lets assume), you would still be hard pressed to argue that universities make an effort to limit minorities from enrolling. In other words, even without minority programs, universities are still putting great efforts to get minorities into their school. Racism, for all its practical purposes, is eliminated as a powerful force within universities.
And this is really all I need to prove my point. When a university creates a minority program that spends some of its money that should have been spent on lab equipment, or tuition for the needy etc…when it spends that money on outreach programs for minorities, it has already went above and beyond the call of duty. All us minorities, indeed all anybody should ask, is for the university to give us equal say in getting accepted, the rest should be our responsibility.
But again, all of this is going to quickly become meaningless in the next couple generations anyway. It has been my experience that most minorities I meet, especially the ‘up and comers’, the new generation, are overall against racial preferences, atleast less so than their parents. Times are changen, and its about time, I say.
And so did this friend of your become a productive member of society? Is she doing well for herself? If so, then this is good. Again, the purpose of affirmative action is to encourage diversity. It’s not like all minorities get a free ride based on being a minority. I certainly didn’t get a free ride.
This is a girl I dated somewhat seriously a few years back. She grew up in a trailor park her whole life, one that only has one room, yet four people lived inside (I still tell her that is better than living in a high crime area, but she disagrees, i guess poor is a subjective term, in the USA ).
After graduating from college, she now owns a HOME with her brother. Her mother, and other brother also live inside of it (4 bdrm home, btw). Granted, it’s not in Beverly Hills, but it is in a decent part of town (North Side Long Beach). She overall has job bouncing problems, but this is normal for someone fresh out of college (especially with her major), but owning her own home, at her age (22), is not a small matter (especially in California).
“easier as an Indian than does someone who is Black or Latino”
I think a lot of this has to do with perceived assistance. In my own life I have known many Indians who (1) learned english in India (2) had a degree in India. Yes, I’m sure this has a lot to do with my field. Of course India has a lot of problems. Poverty, caste system, etc. But I don’t think it would be a stretch to say that India tries to focus on english and education. Both help out significantly if they become immigrants to the US.
Now some blabbing on the whole minority semantics. How do we define minority?
Appearance? I am a mutt mixture of norwegian, native american, french, etc. My appearance is not that of a ‘minority’.
Economics? My family was below the poverty line in my high school and college years. Yet compared to the hardship of other countries, I would say I am not a ‘minority’.
As a Canadian in this country I am a minority, but not a ‘minority’ since I (1) blend in (2) know english (3) have a degree. We need to use some new words.
ChrisN you’re Canadian? I didn’t know that. Get out.
Nu dute aboot it.
I just got back from a long long night at work and I wanna get to the gym before it closes…….. – OSO
So how many crunches can you do? 🙂
It sounds like she is a productive member of society……and had it not been for ‘affirmative action’……..things might have been even more difficult for her.
Yes, DD. We all know Hispanics probably wouldn’t be where they are at if it weren’t for affirmative action.
Sigh
You go dig up your stats, for those of us in the academic environment, it’s a no brainer.
Come on, HP, work with me……..what percentage of the Hispanic population benefits from these types of programs?
I bet very, very little do.
Just a hunch.
–DD
Yes, DD. We all know Hispanics probably wouldn’t be where they are at if it weren’t for affirmative action.
–HP
No…………not ALL. I bet very little actually do.
The problem is socioeconomic not racial. I’ve pretty much always felt this way, but there are also cultural issues to be taken in to account. I’m not going to go too far in to this, but many universities have realized that SAT’s and GPA’s are just not adequate predictors of college success and they have also realized that if you give these people (white, brown whatever) the chance to succeed in college they will take even greater advantage of it than those of us who see higher education as a birth right or an entitlement. So affirmative action-type programs (though there really isn’t such a thing) help universities to serve this pupose. “The Miner’s Canary” by Loni Guinier gets in to all this with statistics and proofs. As HP noted, universities are doing these things on their own initiative because they believe they better the institution, it is the legal and political system that is holding them back. Why is that? If a business believed that having racial minorities or socioeconomic minorities on their payroll would help thier bottom line would we stop them from from seeking these people out? I’m guessing not, but the same market-type variables are at work in the universitites as well. So why the double-standard and why do politicians want to make decisions that are better left to educators. I’m just trying to show that this can be justified by a free-market, small government perspective as well as from the bleeding-heart liberal perspective.
The problem is socioeconomic not racial. I’ve pretty much always felt this way, but there are also cultural issues to be taken in to account.
You’ve just summed up this conservatives view.
But the ones that do, and ‘make it’ are forever branded by people like you.
–HP
Again………very “few” participate and enjoy the benefits of affirmative action.
That is why I am looking for any statistics that might be out there to show you that very few minorities participate in the programs you are talking about.
Don’t get all pissy with me and call me a “libbie”, you know full well that I am not one.
I don’t know how to take your “branded” statement, other than we are anyways. We are brown. Please know, and I mean this with all sincerity that I hope you are not allowing “pride” and “ego” to influence you why you think educational affirmative action should be completely done away with.
Affirmative action is supposed to make up for “past effects” of discrimination.
What you are saying is that the past effects of discrimination are settled. I want to take a conservative position and ensure that everything is fair and balanced.
Don’t get all pissy with me and call me a “libbie”, you know full well that I am not one.
If it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck…
Btw, good article. I’m definitely going to read it.
Oso,
I am going over it now, and it does seem like I have read parts of it before. I used to date this Salvadorean/Peru girl that was Republican, and getting her masters in Poli Sci at USC (everybody thought we were a perfect match, a kinda blind date thing). Anyway, I think this is the article she showed me once over dinner, she never gave it all to me that night, and we never got around to it afterwards, so I didn’t get a chance to finish it. It looks interesting though, I am definitely going to finish reading it (Probably after my midterm next week, though) this time.
And you sound machista bro when you tell someone to go home and think until they agree with you.
Re-read what I said. I didn’t say ‘until they agree with me’. I said ‘fully understand my views on discrimination and its solution’. I wasn’t trying to get her to agree with me, only understand my views on it (Remember, ‘answer me directly’ thing, asked three times).
But than again, theres nothing wrong with a lil machismo. I am Mexican, afterall. I have an excuse. 😉
Hola Cindylu,
No me había dado cuenta que eres latina. Estaba viendo las fotos en flickr y vi que eres uno de nosotros. ¿Vives en San Diego? ¿De dónde eres?
I said ‘fully understand my views on discrimination and its solution’. –HP
Hmmmm. to “fully understand” can mean to accept as a fact. I understand where you are coming from, but I don’t “fully understand”. We can respectfully agree to disagree. –DD
I can do precisely 3 crunches. Except when my boy Revaz and I have our summer ab challenge. Then it’s around 10. I’d imagine you’re around 500? –OSO
Yep! Easily!
And your last post was spot on – my gluteus all-of-it-is “commonly weak.” There definitely is a cultural explanation to that one. I’m pretty sure my tensor fascia latae is tight too. I think. — OSO
I usually don’t have very many problems with my tensor fascia latae’s…. hee hee! You’re funny! 🙂
“Let’s face it…..discrimination does exist.”
-DD
This is an incontrovertible fact of life. Indeed, we have all been, at one time or another, the “victims” of discrimination, as well as the practitioners of discrimination. This may sound like heresy to some, but discrimination is very often a good thing.
In any case, there are laws which outlaw racial discrimination. The high probability that some will fail to comply with the law does not justify state in endorsing and engaging in the very practice it claims to abhor.
Indeed, should an affirmative action program, which requires a certain number of positions be allocated for midgets, be forced upon the National Basketball Association so that the “diversity” of those who are relatively short in stature can be realized in professional sports? That to me seems absurd, much like race based affirmative action programs.
Affirmative action programs, in my opinion, causes harm to the very people who its proponents claim to want to help- “minorities.” It seems that those who argue for it have only emotion on their side.
Ay yi yi. Now you! Ok, O man! I will save this for tomorrow. Read a little something to enjoy my coffee. 🙂
Oh hell yeah, you guys are in for it now. My boy Observer1 kicks ass.
Allow me to introduce him. He is a Mexican/American who grew up in the LA area as well (Montebello, am I right O?). Very smart, and very well written. He is also planning to be a historian, and knows a whole lot of stuff about history(I normally dislike historians, but I’ll make the exception for Mexican ones – call me biased, I admit it, like Howard Zinn would say, everybodies biased 😉 ).
Thanks for participating O, and I got your back dawg. 🙂
Ummmmmmmmmmm.
HP, I thought I was supposed to have the last word tonight? Remember? You had the last word last night.
Geez…….that machismo in you has got to go!
Now do your homework. lol!
Just so everybody is completely tuned in, Observer1, DD, and myself originally met on a discussion forum we all participated in (Soychicano.com) a while back. I’d like to think we have grown in friendship ever since. 🙂
^^^ I guess you are not letting me have the last word.
Indeed, should an affirmative action program, which requires a certain number of positions be allocated for midgets, be forced upon the National Basketball Association so that the “diversity” of those who are relatively short in stature can be realized in professional sports? That to me seems absurd, much like race based affirmative action programs. –Observer
Does the National Basketball Associate receive federal assistance from the federal government?
Hello Cindylu,
I’m a wee bit intoxicated, so bear with me.
Although I favor affirmative action, I also know that it only affects the most selective institutions, which is a tiny portion of higher education.
Than why do you favor it?
First, I definitely have seen the grades and what schooling looks like for Latina/o students in California, and to a lesser extent nationwide. I know that our grades and test scores are lower, and that serious school reform is needed. There is something seriously wrong if 100 Latino students in California begin high school, 45 graduate and only 6 attain a BA.
I am going to ask you the same thing I asked DD, spell it out for me, why do you think this is the case?
The way you answer this one single question, will dictate the whole direction of this discussion. So please, be as direct and honest as you can (speak from the heart girl) I want to hear it all.
I’m the child of Mexican immigrants. My parents emigrated as children and did all of their schooling in this country. They both went to East LA schools (Garfield vs. Roosevelt, I’m the child of a rivalry), graduated, and then continued their education through some vocational program or community college.
Cool stuff. What part of Mexico are your parents from? My parents are from Guerrero (where the real men are from, btw 😉 ). I dated a couple girls from East LA when I was younger, thats all I know of E LA really. I remember there is a pretty big cemetery in E LA, she used to run around the damn thing all the time. I pretty much spent all my time in Compton/Watts and Lynwood.
After working on campus for a couple of years, I applied to graduate school. Currently, I’m enrolled in a PhD program at UCLA in Higher Education.
Ahhh!!! Now, I remember. You’re the one that was supposed to ‘show me whats up’ with regard to vouchers. 😉 We should definitely have that conversation one of these days, I want to know what you have to say.
I don’t believe that the university is going “above and beyond the call of duty” by providing these outreach programs. The UC is a public university, funded in part by California taxpayers. The university is meerly fulfilling it’s mission of education, service and research by creating and sustaining outreach programs.
I think anytime any university spends money on anything other than the fundamentals of education (lab equipment, school supplies, etc), it is going ‘above the call of duty’. It is a good thing, don’t get me wrong, but the school has no ‘moral obligation’ to do this. And don’t give me the BS response about how assimulation is its goal, when Universities create graduations based on race, you start to get the feeling that assimulation isn’t it’s primary goal.
It looks like your experience is a lot different than mine. The ‘up and comers’ I know are in favor of affirmative action.
Well you need to go back to East LA, and the inner cities of LA. Almost everyone I know, especially those in inner cities, have a much more laxed view of affirmative action than the elders. Even some of the most liberal people I know.
Just look at my boy Observer1, he too is a Mexican from LA, and argues against affirmative action more passionately than I do.
i think i speak for everyone when i say “DD and HP go ahead and fuck already!” or, failing that, get email addresses or IM screen names. your comments are taking up precious time and space from what the readers really want to hear: comments like this one.
so let me just settle this discussion by saying “mexicans go back to mexico, indians go back to mexico, asians go back to india, and liberals go back to ireland.”
consider the matter settled.
I expected more from you Moreno, aren’t you the History major? You forgot your liberal education already, remember us Mexicans are already in Mexico. 😉
But as far as all the others, especially the liberals leaving (although I’d send them to Canada) and the Indians leaving (They take all the good jobs!!!), I am all for it. 🙂
Btw, DD and I do talk over email and IM. 🙂
lol! how embarrassing……….geez Moreno. lmfao!
that’s it! no more arguing in public with, HP. Got that, HP? Nope……nu-uh. no sireeee!
😈
“Does the National Basketball Associate receive federal assistance from the federal government?”
-DD
I doubt it, but I cannot say one way or the other for sure.
Do you have a point to make, DD?
“I expected more from you Moreno…”
-HP
Really? This is the first post of his that I have read, and it seems to suit him- simple and to the point.
Cindy – you went to UCLA undergrad?? so did I!! Go Ruins!! Do the girls still ask about me? And by girls I mean squirrels.
HP – lets invade mexico. theyve been getting a little uppity lately. I call Vice-President!
DD – its friday and i’m in love…unfortunately its not with fitness. but maybe a few more cure videos might change my mind. might i suggest “Kiling an Arab”? After all, it was the theme song at Bush’s inauguration.
Abogado – you’re still alive?? damn, I’m out $25.
ChrisN – Did you hear what HP said about the Queen mum?? you gonna stand for that? lets invade HP…I call Vice-President!
Observer – I don’t know who you are but your avatar is sexy. you dont have a link to your site and i think thats even sexier. lets make love and give the proceeds to the NBA.
Oso – I liked the post. I agree with you, we do need to kill all blacks and jews. But how? I think HP has got a few plans of attack.
Moreno – you’re a sad sad man.
LOL.
Sorry Oso, Moreno is now my favorite liberal blogger. He seems like a guy who’d be cool to drink with (and probably smoke w/ too, if that was my thing 😉 )
I doubt it, but I cannot say one way or the other for sure. Do you have a point to make, DD? –Observer
Yes. But I need to know for sure. Can you find out for sure? 😈 –DD
DD – its friday and i’m in love…unfortunately its not with fitness. but maybe a few more cure videos might change my mind. might i suggest “Kiling an Arab”? After all, it was the theme song at Bush’s inauguration. –Morena
Dude……It doesn’t have anything to do with fitness, but it has everything to do with it being Friday. I take it you don’t like The Cure? How about the SS song for the inauguration…………..”Saving the Shiites”. 😆
“Yes”
-DD
Good, please make it..
“Can you find out for sure?”
-DD
I am sure that I could, but I will not.
“But I need to know for sure.”
-DD
If you “need” to know then I think it is you who needs to acquire that information.
My point is this………
Colleges get monies from the federal government. To “our” knowledge…..the NBA does not. There are rules that colleges have to follow according to the law, in order to receive the funds.
The ‘midget’ example you gave isn’t practical in this scenario.
How can a strong, fast, ‘normally’ tall NBA player learn from a very, very short person in the NBA? Also, wouldn’t there be safety issues involved? Seriously! That’s like me wanting to fight a sumo wrestler.
Are the ‘very short people’ complaining about not being allowed into the NBA? If so, then they need to form a special interest group.
On the other hand, if diversity is encouraged in the class room, ‘a mixture of students with varying backgrounds and experiences will grow to respect and learn from each other’.
“Colleges get monies from the federal government. There are rules that colleges have to follow according to the law, in order to receive the funds.”
-DD
You still have failed to make your point clear. Are you suggesting that there are some universities that are not complying with the current anti-discrimination laws? If so, which ones? If not, then this “point” is moot.
“How can a strong, fast, ‘normally’ tall NBA player learn from a very, very short person in the NBA?”
-DD
By watching, I suppose.
“Are the ‘very short people’ complaining about not being allowed into the NBA? If so, then they need to form a special interest group.”
-DD
So, you allow for “diversity” only when certain groups “complain?” Why not be proactive and force the NBA to have a more “tolerant” policy of inclusion? Perhaps, the reason midgets are not openly expression their dismay is that they are embarrassed. Maybe they just need a little push or a show of good will.
“…wouldn’t there be safety issues involved?”
-DD
There are always issues in regards to safety, but they (little people) wouldn’t be forced to play if they did not want to.
“On the other hand, if diversity is encouraged in the class room, ‘a mixture of students with varying backgrounds and experiences will grow to respect and learn from each other’.”
-DD
Do you have any credible evidence that might support your conclusion?
I live in an area that is racially cosmopolitan- Los Angeles. Indeed, our local are high schools are brimming with “diversity,” yet there have been numerous instances of physically violent behaviors between individuals along “racial” lines. Blacks and Chicano high school students have lived and studied side-by-side for years, and there is little evidence of this “learned respect” of which you write. Indeed, they sometimes seem to be at one another’s throats.
Furthermore, the L.A. Riots highlighted the lack of respect between peoples of differing “backgrounds” and “experiences” who live amongst one another.
Your conclusion does not seem to be supported by events in the actual world; those types of dreams exist only in the minds of idealistic college students and professors who dwell behind their protected walls universities. But even if your conclusion were to be supported by some credible evidence that still does not justify discrimination on the basis of race.
You could say that again, O!
LOL, I think I did.
Oh, and don’t let the eye lashes fool ya, I’m one tough vato.
Hey O,
I live in an area that is racially cosmopolitan- Los Angeles. Indeed, our local are high schools are brimming with “diversity,” yet there have been numerous instances of physically violent behaviors between individuals along “racial” lines. Blacks and Chicano high school students have lived and studied side-by-side for years, and there is little evidence of this “learned respect” of which you write. Indeed, they sometimes seem to be at one another’s throats.
Few people realize just how much tension there is between Mexicans and Blacks in the ‘inner cities’ . Here at work, just in passing conversation once, I mentioned how in the harbor area (Not Compton) several Mexican gangs often have an unspoken competition to rid (usually by killing, and intimidation) blacks from their neighborhoods, and everybody responded w/ amazement. I guess the perception is that we all just hug, and sing cumbayas at night. When the exact opposite is much more closer to reality. For example, few people realize that for the most part, gangs in LA are split along racial lines, blacks are bloods and crips, mexicans (Latinos, etc) are 13’s. The prison system is no different either, Mexicans all ‘back each other up’ while blacks do the same. What makes this even more racial is that two mexican rival gangsters, from two gangs that have killed each other for years, would all of the sudden tolerate one another when they enter the prison system, only because they are ‘Mexican/Latino/Hispanic’ etc. Yet a black kid you could have grown up with, went to school with, and overall considered your friend, you wouldn’t even be able to shake his hand if you bumped into him in Californias prison system.
I remember when I was in Compton talking to a paisa that lived near my house. This guy was relatively new to the United States, and had quickly got caught up in the gang mentality. He was from a Latino gang that had been going through some serious ‘turf wars’ with a nearby black gang. He happened to be one of the main killers from his gang, and several people in the neighborhood knew it. I remember talking to him about this once, and asking him how he felt about killing so many black people. His immediate response was, “es como matando a perros” (It’s like killing dogs). Imagine that? This guy comes from a country (Mexico) that has very few black people, but in the short time he was here, he learned enough racism and hatred towards black people to rival the most extreme KKK member, yet he was completely accepted in the culture he was in. Granted, not everybody is this extreme, but its more a difference in emphasis than in a fundamental way of looking at each other.
What do you suppose causes that tension? It is my understanding that other states don’t have a problem this severe, for example, I have heard that overall Chicago gangs, although overall equally ‘diverse’ in the inner cities, have a much more racial overlapping gang structure. Also, from what I hear about Texas, the severeity is not as deep. All this tells me that there has to be culutral differences that either help, or hurt this type of behavior. It has been on my mind the last few years, and although I don’t know exactly why, I think I have some ideas. As another person from LA who I am sure has experienced this in one way or another, I’d be interested to know what you think are the causes of this tension.
Correction:
I’m re-reading the above, and I should have used the word ‘responded with ‘shock’, instead of ‘amazement’. Amazement sord of implies that they were overall accepting of what I was describing, and clearly, that wasn’t their reaction. Keep that in mind when reading the above.
Do you have any credible evidence that might support your conclusion?
Observer, DD may not have “credible” evidence of this, but there is a great deal of research on the positive effects of structural diversity (just the numbers) on college students across institutional types. These are not just fuzzy, feel good affective benefits. Research has shown that interaction with diverse peers, both in and outside the classroom, improves critical thinking skills. So, there are definitely cognitive outcomes. Like I mentioned earlier, administrators favor a diverse learning environment because it fits in line with their institution’s mission. I can provide some citations for you if you would like. Some of the work educational researchers have done was even used by the Supreme Court in the Gratz v. Bollinger case at the University of Michigan.
Than why do you favor it?
Well, those selective institutions also are considered some of the best institutions. Whether or not students get a better education there is up in the air, but it is well documented that there are several “fringe benefits” of attending an elite university. Also, some of these elite universities are public instutitions that should be committed to educating the state population. There is something seriously wrong to me that Chicanas/os and Latinas/os make up 15.4% of the undergradute population at UCLA and constitute about 45% of the Los Angeles county population.
I am going to ask you the same thing I asked DD, spell it out for me, why do you think this is the case?
It’s because the Man is holding us down.
I think there are several reasons, but the primary one is that Chicana/o and Latina/o students do not receive an equitable education. In schools that are predominantly Raza there are fewer AP classes. In schools that were made up of 70% or greater Black and Latino students there were about 3.8 AP courses. If the Blacks and Latinos made up 30% or less of the population the school offered 5.3 AP courses. There are more reasons such as more teachers without a teaching credential, less funds, and tracking. Latinos are tracked into non-college prep courses at a much higher proportion than they make up in the school. Conversely, in 2000-01 academic year, Latino students made up only 20.4% of the GATE (gifted program) population and 43.2% of the students in California schools. Our test scores are lower because as we can see “objective” measures like the SAT are really not that objective when you look at the reliability of the exam.
What part of Mexico are your parents from?
My parents were born in Guanajuato and Zacatecas, two silver mining states that got rich during colonial times.
I remember there is a pretty big cemetery in E LA, she used to run around the damn thing all the time.
There are a few big cemeteries in East LA.
I think anytime any university spends money on anything other than the fundamentals of education… it is going ‘above the call of duty’. It is a good thing, don’t get me wrong, but the school has no ‘moral obligation’ to do this.
I get the sense that we have very different ideas about what makes up the fundamentals of education. The purposes of a university are more than just to train or to educate it’s students. I mentioned this in my last post. The missions of most institutions of higher education can be summed up by three key functions: education, research, and service. So, the “call of duty” that you mentioned means that institutions must serve all of these. Thus, depending on what school or what it’s values are, it does have a “moral obligation” to serve the community, to conduct research that will lead to important advances in technology, sciences, educational practices, and so on. Education includes more than just teaching a student how to do an experiment in the lab without blowing it up, and this has been the case since the beginning of American higher education.
And don’t give me the BS response about how assimulation is its goal, when Universities create graduations based on race, you start to get the feeling that assimulation isn’t it’s primary goal.
I hope that wasn’t a bullshit response. By the way, institutions do not create “graduations based on race,” the students do, at least in my experience at UCLA. The students planned the graduations, they raised the funds to conduct it, and they participate in them. They also don’t limit who gets to participate in them. I don’t remember reading that assimilation is a primary goal of American higher education. Now, if we talk about primary and secondary education, that’s different.
Just look at my boy Observer1, he too is a Mexican from LA, and argues against affirmative action more passionately than I do.
For every Observer you find, I can find ten more who will argue passionately for affirmative action.
“Oh, and don’t let the eye lashes fool ya, I’m one tough vato”. –Observer
Do you have any evidence to support this? 😆
“Blacks and Chicano high school students have lived and studied side-by-side for years, and there is little evidence of this “learned respect” of which you write. Indeed, they sometimes seem to be at one another’s throats”.–Observer
Prove that there is little evidence of learned respect please.
“Furthermore, the L.A. Riots highlighted the lack of respect between peoples of differing “backgrounds” and “experiences” who live amongst one another”.–Observer
To my knowledge, the L.A. riots occurred because the L.A.P.D officers were acquitted and were found not guilty. Civil Rights activists believed that these officers abused their authority when they were beating the shit out of Rodney King. Civil Rights Activists believed that they should have received a stiffer punishment for literally beating up on an intoxicated driver.
Does racism exist in police departments? Yes, it does. If racism/discrimination occurs in the workplace………does it occur in colleges?
“Your conclusion does not seem to be supported by events in the actual world”; –Observer
I don’t do well with defeatist type attitudes. One can dream about “how things SHOULD be, just as Martin Luther did.
“… those types of dreams exist only in the minds of idealistic college students and professors who dwell behind their protected walls universities”.
Nay. If Martin Luther King can “dream”, I saw we all can. 😉
“But even if your conclusion were to be supported by some credible evidence that still does not justify discrimination on the basis of race”.
Exactly, just as the Brown v. Board of Education ruling demonstrated. 😛
“Prove that there is little evidence of learned respect please”
-DD
LOL!!! You made the assertion of some vague concept of a “learned respect” therefore the onus is yours to provide evidence of its existence. A cogent dialogue cannot occur if you insist on making silly responses to actual events that seemingly shatter your ludicrous and unproven theory.
“To my knowledge, the L.A. riots occurred because the L.A.P.D officers were acquitted and were found not guilty.”
-DD
There were, in my opinion, many stimuli to L.A. Riots; however, it was Latinos and Asians who received the brunt of Black brutality, not L.A. police officers. That was my point, and you completed ignored it; and then you offered a reply that is nonsensical in relation to the highlighted (strained) “race” relations between Chicanos/Latinos and Blacks in L.A.
If as you argue, there will be a “learned respect” between different peoples as a result of living and studying amongst one another why then did not this “respect” surface during the riots? I submit for your consideration that this notion of a “learned respect” garnered by different races/ethnicities merely as a result of studding and living amongst one another is figment of an overly optimistic and fantasy prone mind.
“Exactly, just as the Brown v. Board of Education ruling demonstrated.”
-DD
So then, you find race based discrimination just as repugnant as I, good. Or are you in favor of the race based discrimination practices of affirmative action? Which is it, DD?
“I’m sure I can find out, but I will not. If you need to know, I think it is you who needs to acquire that information.”
-DD
So you have no proof or evidence to support your claim? Then your claim is baseless and thus moot.
“I think diversity should be encouraged according to the ‘law’. “
-DD
So too do I; so long as the laws that encourage diversity do not also encourage apathy, or allow or call for discrimination on the basis of race.
“So you have no proof or evidence to support your claim? Then your claim is baseless and thus moot”.–Observer
As is your “height-challenged” example.
“So too do I; so long as the laws that encourage diversity do not also encourage apathy, or allow or call for discrimination on the basis of race”.–Observer
And I suppose the law is good to provide some sort of “check” and balance until a better resolution is created in regards to discrimination. Minorities look less to Congress and more into ‘high courts’ because there is a belief that the high courts are ‘sympathetic’ to “minority” views.
“As is your “height-challenged” example.”
-DD
I am glad to read that you no longer agree with your previous conclusion.
HP, one down!
HP,
Did you put your soapbox away already? Good.
I do speak Spanish, but I’m not going to write this comment in Spanish because it will take a little longer and the accents and ñ’s disrupt the flow of my typing.
In regard to Sander’s study, I have heard of it and read some things about it, but have not read the actual study yet.
Honestly, I don’t interact with too many conservatives, so I don’t know if you get sarcasm as it comes across through text. When I stated “It’s because the Man is holding us down” I was being facetious and saying what (from what I’ve read from your blog) you would expect a liberal pro-affirmative action Chicana to say.
Come on Cindy. As my comrad Observer1 so eloquently described above, “those types of dreams exist only in the minds of idealistic college students and professors who dwell behind their protected walls universities”. I don’t expect this from someone who grew up in E LA.
HP, I think reading is fundamental. You must have missed the part in one of my earlier posts where I said that my parents grew up in East LA, but I grew up in the suburbs. You’re from the LA-area, so I assumed you knew that East Los is not the suburbs. But, if you want to hear something from an East Los Chicana, I can just ask my roommate, a teacher and strong believer in affirmative action.
Now, how do you know that I was spouting something my professors would want me to say? You make a lot of assumptions about the professors in academe, especially the ones whose work has influenced my own ideas about education or Chicana/o culture. Maybe it’s your Mexican machismo shining through (in case you missed it, there was sarcasm there). How do you know they don’t have working class roots, didn’t grow up in the ghetto, or that they don’t live in/around Westwood or the Westside. What I said is what I truly believe not only through the work I have done in school but in my experience working with youth and working with students who come from the very communities and schools we talk about as the places where we need to fix things.
AP classes were just one of the examples I mentioned in secondary education. Admittedly, I know a lot less about primary education for Latino kids. Tracking starts early though. I was tracked as early as kindergarten into the advanced reading group. I’m not sure if there are Asian areas with high dropout rates. The suburb I grew up in has a large population of Asians and they definitely have a higher educational attainment than the Latino kids. However, I also know that not all Asians have the same rate of educational attainment and to lump people from many different countries with different immigration and refugee experiences is unwise. Southeast Asians, in particular, have higher poverty rates and lower educational attainment than do their East Asian counterparts.
I’m not as stuck in the past as you assume. I do use FireFox and I also understand that there are several reasons for lower educational attainment of Latinos and particularly Chicanos. But you know what also went out with the times? Cultural deficit models.
Is your self esteem, your confidence, in being Mexican really so fragile that you are scared to admit it is our culture, it is our cultural environment that is causing this?
No. I have great self esteem, but as a researcher I am very careful when I talk about causality. So, I’m not going to say that “our culture” causes the problem of our lower educational attainment. I think ignoring the institutional factors is irresponsible. There are structural inequalities, and it’s not just the professors who acknowledge this. Ask any of the youth who walked out of East LA schools in 1968 or those organizing for the passage of the DREAM act. They’re not in the “ivory tower” nor do they live in a bubble.
The problem falls primarily in our lap, and it’s a tragedy of the hugest sorts.
We may both like the Dodgers, but I don’t agree on this one with you. No puedo, por que en mi corazón sé que mi gente valora educación y no podemos decir que es nuestra cultura que causa fracasos. I don’t wear any type of glasses, cultural relativist or not. So, please don’t tell me how I should view the world and the problems. If you’ve read all my responses to you closely, you will see that I have disagreed with you, but I’ve respected your opinion enough to tell you how you need to see the problem of education for our community. With my own eyes based on my own experience growing up, I have seen propositions passed by the voters of California that sought to exclude undocumented youth from public schools, dismantle affirmative action, place greater emphasis on locking up our troubled youth than in intervention programs, and cripple bilingual education programs.
I never said that affirmative action would solve problems of educational attainment for our community. It is a band-aid and only affects a few people. But, we need professionals in our communities to be engineers, businessmen and women, teachers, policymakers, attorneys, school administrators, counselors, doctors, etc. These are the people I expect to go back to their communities and work to improve them. Without affirmative action or alternative admission programs, some of these people would not have had the chance in the past.
Now, I need to end this and get to studying so that some time in the not-so-distant future I can become one of those latté sipping professors. Maybe some day an uninformed Hispanic conservative will assume that I’m not connected with my community too, maybe he’ll tell me which is the right way to see the world and completely ignore that as a mujer I do have a mind of my own and don’t need a Machista to elighten me.
Thank you, HP. You’ve restored my faith in el Mexicano. (Sarcasm alert).
Cindylu, it is clear that you support race based affirmative action programs and that you conclude that Chicanos are either entitled to, or deserving of the “benefits” of said programs. Also, you are, if I am not mistaken, a Chicana; that is, you are descendent of parents who migrated to the US from Mexico.
If you do agree (which you seemingly do) that Chicanos are in need, deserving and/or entitled to race-based affirmative action programs, do you feel that you, as a Chicana, needs the aid of such raced-based programs, or is deserving and/or entitled to benefit from affirmative action programs?
If so, why? Why are you, a Chiacna, entitled to or deserving of the extraordinary considerations that race-based affirmative action bestows upon its “benefactors?”
I am seeking a serious response, thank you.
You know DD, please do all of us a favor and start referring to yourself as a moderate liberal. Atleast until you either agree, or at the very least, understand the the conservatives position on the above (For example, here, here, and here. Or here and here.).
That would be much more philosophically honest, because DD ma dear, you are no conservative on minority issues.
With that said…I am out for real this time!!!–HP
HP, good luck on your exam. I will leave this alone so that you can focus, carnal. 😉
DD,
Please come to San Diego. We desperately need to find HP a woman.
HP,
Sorry man. I ended up cruising up to LA.
Everyone,
Enjoy the Super Bowl.
“There are two individuals in life…”
-DD
Extremely insightful, DD; did you come to this conclusion all on your own?
DD,
Please come to San Diego. We desperately need to find HP a woman. –OSO
Ok…..I will help HP find someone, hopefully we can find him someone that he can mold to his strict, stict Republican views. 😉 😆 –DD
Extremely insightful, DD; did you come to this conclusion all on your own? –Observer
Ay yi yi! 🙄
Which one are you? #1 or #2?
Observer: Do you feel that you, as a Chicana, needs the aid of such raced-based programs, or is deserving and/or entitled to benefit from affirmative action programs?
Observer, you posed this question in a very personal way. I’m afraid I’m going to answer it in a personal way, and you won’t get the answer you wanted. First, I don’t believe that affirmative action programs, at least nowadays, are race based. If I was admitted to an elite private university, perhaps the fact that I checked the Mexican/Mexican-American/Chicana/o box made a difference. Maybe it didn’t. I was still required to meet the admissions criteria of that institutions, so I would have still been “qualified” in the eyes of the admissions counselors. Race/ethnicity would have been one thing considered along with my grades, test scores, recommendations, personal statement, and extracurricular activities.
Second, I was born in 1980. By the time I got to apply to college, Proposition 209 and Standing Policy 1 (like prop 209, but applied to the UC system) were just getting implemented. Thus, race was not even considered in my admission. So, in some ways, the issue of affirmative action in admissions is irrelevant to me personally when it comes to admissions to a university.
I know you’re probably going to say I was skirting the issue, but you made it personal and I answered it personal.
Which one are you? #1 or #2?
-DD
LOL! I think you’re full of #2, DD.
“Observer, you posed this question in a very personal way. I’m afraid I’m going to answer it in a personal way and you won’t get the answer you wanted”
-cindylu
Very presumptuous of you to conclude to have knowledge of “the answer I wanted.” lol
I expected that you’d answer my questions in a “personal way,” that is why I asked you why you feel (presuming you do, of course) deserving/entitled of affirmative action on the basis of your race or ethnicity. However, I had also hoped that you’d answer both questions, but you didn’t. So, why should your race/ethnicity be considered in regards to admission to a public institution of higher learning?
“I know you’re probably going to say I was skirting the issue, but you made it personal and I answered it personal.”
-cindylu
You sure did answer it in a personal manner, however you failed to answer both questions and you did, as you noted, “skirt” the issue. This just means that I’ll have to be more direct with you to get an honest and direct answer to a direct question; I’ll just chip away. I have no qualms in doing so, as tenacity is a trait which I possess; we need only ask HP, he knows about that.
“First, I don’t believe that affirmative action programs, at least nowadays, are race based.”
-DD
Well, your “beliefs” aside, race and ethnicity are/were indeed considered and are/were the basis of admitting “underrepresented minorities” to institutions of higher learning. If not, why would you admit that “race/ethnicity would have been one thing considered…” in regards to your admission to an “elite” university?
“…so I would have still been ‘qualified’ in the eyes of the admissions counselors.”
-cindylu
True, you would, at the very least, have met the minimum requirements to be considered for admission, but were you the best candidate? That is, were your academic achievements superior to those of your competitors? Did an academically stronger candidate (even if he/she was only marginally stronger than you) loss out to you on the basis of his/her race? And would you not have (all things being equaled) obtained that coveted spot on the basis of your race/ethnicity? If so, does that not contradict the purposes of implementing requirements and fair play?
However, I do not wish to imply that I do not think that consideration of a candidate’s economic status should not be considered in regards to admissions to universities. In fact, I would support and encourage the development of a program that took into account the disadvantages of applicants of a relatively lower socio-economic status, but not their race/ethnicity. Race/ethnicity should play no role what so ever in the admission to universities; there should be no discrimination on the basis of race/ethnicity.
“So, in some ways, the issue of affirmative action in admissions is irrelevant to me personally when it comes to admissions to a university.”
-cindylu
I am not asking you if race based affirmative action programs are currently in existence, but rather if you conclude that such a program and or policy should be implemented by the state.
Indeed, since many race based affirmative action programs have been dismantled this whole dialogue would/could be considered moot. But we are not discussion what is being done, but rather what we conclude should be done. You seem to favor race based affirmative action programs and I do not.
So, I reiterate: Should your race/ethnicity be considered in regards to admission to a public institution of higher learning? If so, why?
Funny how you frame the issue Observer. When it is race it is “discrimination” when it is socio-economic status it is “[taking] into account the disadvantages of applicants”. You are working on assumptions that others simply don’t agree with. I actually happen to agree with you here, but I think for different reasons, but if you demand honesty from others, then be honest regarding your own assumptions. You have already decided the answer by the way you frame the question.
Also, what is wrong with allowing a university to factor in race as one of many factors realted to personal experience? Universities want a diverse student body to contribute to everybody’s learning experience.
Also I think you are missing the point here:
Superior academic achievements (in the form of SAT’s, LSAT’s, GPA’s etc.) are not accurate predictors of a student’s potential for success. They are good predictors when combined with numerous other factors (such as background experiences including race). You are assuming that a student with a higher SAT and GPA is the “better” candidate and that simply is not true. The problem is that “merit” is defined as GPA/LSAT and there is no reason why that is necessarily accurate. So let the universities decide what their standards will be. If they are wrong then their student body will be worse and the market for higher education will punnish them until they change their ways- classic conservative ideology at work here.
“When it is race it is ‘discrimination’ when it is socio-economic status it is “[taking] into account the disadvantages of applicants.”
-Abogado
There’s nothing funny about it, the very process to select candidates is discriminatory in nature; it’s the basis by which institutions chose to discriminate that is at issue here. You seem to accept and encourage race-based discrimination and I do not. I would support an admission policy that uses socio-economic factors in its discriminatory process, but I do not favor an admission policy that factors race into its discriminatory process. It is as simple as that.
“You are working on assumptions that others simply don’t agree with…but if you demand honesty from others, then be honest regarding your own assumptions.”
-Abogado
With what assumptions do you conclude that I am working? Would you elaborate; where have I been dishonest? Please don’t be shy about being specific and honest, I prefer that.
“You have already decided the answer by the way you frame the question.”
-Abogado
This is not a trick question; indeed, it is a very simple and direct question, and one that is worthy of an honest response. That you and your cohorts, who agree with discrimination on the basis of race, refuse to answer a direct question indicates to me that you, as well as they, recognize the repugnant hypocrisy of the affirmative action programs you support and champion.
That is, you are aware that affirmative action (as has been practiced) goes against that which is just, fair, and moral. In my opinion, it is simply the fact that these unjust, unfair, and immoral policies of affirmative action favors particular groups (you think need special treatment) that causes you to fail to admit to the inherent immoral act of considering race as a discriminating factor within the admission process.
“…what is wrong with allowing a university to factor in race as one of many factors related to personal experience?”
-Abogado
I cannot believe that you are unable to fathom the wrongs that can arise (and have arisen) as a result of discrimination on the basis of race, wow!
You seem to be echoing the words of James Farmer. This founder of the Congress of Racial Equality, who wanted “compensatory preferential treatment.” Farmer concluded “it was impossible” for an “employer to be oblivious to color because we had all grown up in a racist society.”
However, I prefer the words of Roy Wilkins of the NAACP; who in an encounter with Farmer offered a summation of the traditional view of the civil-rights movement: “I have a problem with that whole concept. What you’re asking for there is not equal treatment, but special treatment to make up for the unequal treatment of the past. I think that’s outside the American tradition and the country won’t buy it. I don’t feel at all comfortable asking for any special treatment; I just want to be treated like everyone else.”
Amen.
“Universities want a diverse student body to contribute to everybody’s learning experience.”
-Abogado
I would support that, but diversity should be in the way of opinions, ideals, and worldly outlooks, but not simply on the race of the individual. Should a “Hispanic” university applicant who has attended private schools for his/her entire schooling tenure be the beneficiary of any special consideration? Should the offspring of wealthy individuals be afforded special treatment simply because of their skin color or simply because they have a Spanish surname? I think not.
“Superior academic achievements (in the form of SAT’s, LSAT’s, GPA’s etc.) are not accurate predictors of a student’s potential for success. They are good predictors when -combined with numerous other factors (such as background experiences including race).”
-Abogado
We disagree, it is not race but he experience that should be considered. For example, consider this hypothetical: what “diversity” could a Carlton Banks (of Fresh Prince fame) type Black bring to an all white university? His only his skin color is different, but all the ideals and social mores that have been inculcated into his sensibility have been garnered in a privilege “white world.”
“You are assuming that a student with a higher SAT and GPA is the ‘better’ candidate and that simply is not true.”
-Abogado
Untrue, I am concluding that the student with (all other things being equaled) the higher SAT scores and higher GPA is the more qualified candidate.
“The problem is that ‘merit’ is defined as GPA/LSAT and there is no reason why that is necessarily accurate.”
-Albogado
You’ve lost me, what do you mean?
“So let the universities decide what their standards will be.”
-Albogado
If said university is private and does not accept and/or receive any public monies, I am with you. However, if you were referring to universities that accept public monies then I would expect and demand that they act in compliance with federal anti-racial discrimination laws. That is, that they refrain from in any way discriminating on the basis of race.
“If they are wrong then their student body will be worse and the market for higher education will punnish them until they change their ways- classic conservative ideology at work here.”
-Albogado
And what of the students who earned better marks in school and obtained higher SAT scores? Will they not suffer as well? Are you suggesting that these students should be made to suffer because of their race/ethnicity? I fear that you have not reasoned out the logical conclusions of your opinions.
Also, what of the “needy minority” student? If he/she is placed in an academic environment in which they are unable effectively compete they too will suffer. I am often amazed at the caviler attitudes displayed by “good intentioned” whites; yours is no exception.
I have a vested interest in this whole notion of a “need” for affirmative action amongst Chicano/as, for I am a Chicano. I do not share your conclusion that I or any of us need special treatment on the basis of race/ethnicity to succeed academically; that, to me, is offensive.
Of course, all this has helped to cloud up my original question. Why do you conclude that Chicanos deserve or are entitled to have their race/ethnicity considered in a positive manner in regards to admission to university?
oh wow. Observer, you just managed to simultaneously distort everything I said and throw in quite a few things I have never said. If you would lose the bad habit of putting words in people’s mouths, writing condescendingly and using suspect rhetoric you would get much further in a debate. At least with me anyway. Go back and read what I wrote (and didn’t write) and then try again. night.
Yeah….observer does that from time to time. 😆
Where is observer? 😈 Yoo Hoo!
It never ceases to amaze me just how dishonest, hypocritical, and wrong a seemingly learned ‘net intellectuals can be; Abogeto posts can be used as a perfect example of duplicity and intellectual dishonesty.
He has accused me of condescendence, “putting words in people’s mouths,” and “suspect rhetoric.” Of course, he has not offered ant examples to buttress any of his charges. Instead, he engages (in both of his posts) in the very activities he claims that I employ. I would suggest to him that before he attempt to offer tutorials on debating techniques that he purchase a dictionary and use it from time to time.
Perhaps, he might consider seeking out the definition of the following words:
1. Extrapolation.
2. Evasiveness.
3. Unsubstantiated.
4. Hypocrisy.
If he were to do so he might learn that I neither “distorted” nor “put words in his mouth,” but rather I extrapolated from his posts alternate conclusions or hypothetical scenarios that either highlighted the fallacy of his reasoning and/or displayed the inherit unfairness of them; he might recognize his evasiveness in answering simple and direct questions; he might learn that allegations that are unsubstantiated are pointless; finally, he might recognize his own hypocrisy in characterizing my posts as “condescending.” After all, it was he who initially engaged me with, “Funny how you frame the issue Observer. When it is race it is ‘discrimination’ when it is socio-economic status it is ‘[taking] into account the disadvantages of applicants.’ You are working on assumptions…” Hmm, sounds a bit condescending to me.
However, since I was confident in my ability to rebut the few points he offered I simply did not address the condescending tone of his post; rather, I continued on point and offered my extrapolations. As for “getting further” with him in regards to debate- that seems to me highly improbable; it seems that he’d rather attack me than rebut any points or answer questions that I raise. How can a dialogue occur between the two of us if I am the only forthright and honest participant? Consequently, I have no desire to engage in debate with a whiney, hypocritical, dishonest crybaby who is easily prone to being, as today’s youth so poetically say, “all butt-hurt.”
The question of affirmative action on basis of race/ethnicity is, for me, very easy to answer- it wrong in its conception and in its implementation. If society allows for the consideration in the admittance to instructions of higher education one’s relatively poor economic standing it is sending out the message that, “we (society) recognize that your economic status may have or is likely to have hampered your education;” whereas, if society allows for the consideration of race into admittance to institutions of higher education it is sending out the message, “we recognize that your race/ethnicity may have or is likely to have hampered your education.” Simply put, a race-based affirmative action policy is a bad thing.
—————————————–
DD, you have offered your opinion in regards to my attitude; that is, in your view my state of mind is “defeatist” in outlook- a negative characterization (BTW, I do not agree with you, lol). However, by doing so you have opened the door for me to offer my opinion as to your state of mind and thus far I have refrained from offering my opinion on your attitude. That is, I have not characterized your state of mind.
If you persist with this antagonistic behavior and in riding on the intellectual coat tails of others I might just let lose upon you a fierce barrage of opinions in regards to your attitude; I would hate for you to be struck by any crossfire (smile).
“I don’t care to get in to a silly debate on semantics and rhetoric with you.”
-Abogado
And yet here you are, it’s curious the way life often plays out, huh?
“I simply was tired of reading your condescending nonsense on this board and having your self-righteousness spew through my computer screen.”
-Abogado
Aren’t Liberals the ones who often spew out their company line, “If you don’t like it you can always simply turn it off?” Hypocrisy (your favorite word) comes to my mind; that is assuming of course, that you have uttered that or a similar phrase before, if not disregard.
I guess, you thought or hoped that your initial condescending post directed towards me would halt my “self-righteousness” writings. Mission accomplished?
Of course, I am curious- why not just bring it to my attention and then ask me to stop? It’s like, hmmmm, you know? One might extrapolate that you enjoy this sort of banter.
The only person to whom I wrote in what I agree could be considered a condescending manner was DD. She and I have numerous encounters and, while I like her personally, I have grown tired of her arguing style. How lucky she is that you are the vanguard of those who cannot or will not engage in honest discussion.
You see, here you are jumping in the cool-aid and you don’t even know the flavor. Another inner-city saying, now don’t you feel even dumber?
“Normally, it wouldn’t have elicited a response from me, but I was grumpy because I had been up all night writing a brief.”
-Abogado
Well gosh you poor thing, I sure hope you have taken a well earned rest and that you’re no longer grumpy.
“I’m a “net intellectual” now eh? I’m honored.”
-Abogado
I would label any individual who thinks and displays his/her thoughts on the ‘net a “‘net intellectual,” that you feel that you have garnered distinction is an unintended occurrence, sorry.
“Where did I ever advocate race-based discrimation?”
-Abogado
Your point is noted. You seem to favor an admission policy that factors race into its discriminatory process; I, on the other hand, favor an admission policy that does not factor race into its discriminatory process.
“That is what you call race-based discrimination? A factor to be considered as part of another factor that is one small factor among many factors. Geez. Tough crowd.”
-Abogado
LOL, good point. I am not sure how “small” a factor race is (I would bet that the person who was on the loosing end of affirmative action would consider it a “big” factor), but I would agree that affirmative actions programs, as I know them to have been practiced, are not solely race-based discriminatory policies. In fact, I understand that race is considered only after the applicant has met the minimum requirements. However, I find it offensive that race is consider in any manner in admission to university, and that consideration of race in any manner contradicts the original intent of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.
“I would much prefer to see admissions be based on socio-economic status than on race. But, if the result was a less-diverse study body then I still contend that that would hurt the overall experience of higher education.”
-Abogado
Now this is interesting (seriously).
I think (admittedly with very little supportive evidence at the ready) that if relatively low socio-economic status of the applicant were to be considered many of the intended targets of affirmative action programs would be admitted to universities, but without the negative stigma attached to traditional affirmative action programs.
But here are my questions in regards to the benefit of “racial diversity:” in what way(s) is education made better through the practice of racial diversity? Who “wins” in this scenario? And do you have supportive evidence?
I have attended Los Angeles are schools that are probably the most racially cosmopolitan in the country, or the world for that matter (Fairfax High, Santa Monica College, Cal. State University, Northridge) and can think of no benefits resulting form the racial diversity, presumably of which you write.
In fact, I have witnessed high instances of de facto segregation along racial lines. Indeed, SMC even instituted a program that encouraged, what I would term “classroom segregation.” That is, they created programs that encouraged a limited number of Blacks and so-called Latinos to attend certain classes within their own racial group- Blacks with Blacks and Latinos with Latinos.
If there were to have been any benefit(s) from the practice “diversity” it would seem that de facto segregation practiced by the student body along with the de jure segregation encourage by school administers and officials would have negated it. I have friends who have attended UCLA and other local area universities who have also shared and witnessed similar occurrences.
You have stated that a “less-diverse student body” hurts education, so do you conclude that Morehouse University and Grambling University (traditionally Black universities) are harming their student body by maintaining an overwhelmingly Black student body? If not, why not?
“‘…we recognize the importance of having a diverse student body and would like to do what we can, in a reasonable way, to encourage that.’ Now, is that so crazy?”
If it were to be proven that a person’s race could positively influence the educational experience it would not be crazy or contradict my notion of fair play or to the spirit Civil Rights Act to encourage certain racial groups to apply to universities. However, if you consider race as a factor for consideration for admission to a university it does go against the vary core of anti-racial discrimination legislation and rational; and thus, I would say it is wrong.
Consider my hypothetical of an upper Black or “Latino” applicant who has lived his/her entire life in Pacific Palisades (an extremely wealthy area) what “diversity” could he/she offer that is more beneficial than a white or Asian applicant who resides in the same area?
“I completely understand Observer’s argument against the benefits of diversity.”
-HP
To be clear, I have never argued against the “benefits of diversity,” it is the type of diversity sought that I question. If A process uses race in any way as a guide or as a discriminate factor it assumes way too much, but if diversity is one of an applicant’s life experiences then I could easily agree that such diversity would have merit and/or value to the development and growth of society.
“It is very fulfilling to have friends of different races, different backgrounds, different sexes, all working together with absolutely no regard to who you are or where you came from.”
-HP
Perhaps I am mistaken, but it is the precisely the “differences” (argued to be in existence solely on account of one’s race) of the intended targets of affirmative action that supposedly make factoring race into the discriminatory process a good thing.
So HP, not only is it absolutely taken into account “where you come from,” it is also absolutely necessary that “differences” be considered for the “experiment” to have a chance to succeed. Otherwise, what would be the point of “diversity?”
“we recognize the importance of having a diverse student body and would like to do what we can, in a reasonable way, to encourage that.” Now, is that so crazy?–Abogado
No, it’s not crazy….it’s sounds “reasonable”. 😉 –DD
Observer –
This
has always been my problem with affirmative action. I totally agree. However, an argument could be made that a black or latino, regardless of thier economic status, could offer more in the way of differing opinions in a class room that consists of over-represented whites and asians. I wouldn’t particularly want to defend this point, but I think it could be done in good faith.
As for this:
I would guess (unsubstantiated – my new favorite word) that it does harm the overall learning experience. Also, if you consider that higher education is partially meant to prepare a person to function in a diverse American society, then these schools are certainly leaving out an important part of that socialization. I have never looked in to any data regarding these schools, but my feeling (I could be way off base here) is that they are meant to provide education to those who would not get it elsewhere. I do admit having divided sympathies here, but again my contentions about diversity are considered as part of a whole of educational experience.
Thanks. I do feel better now.
Well then, cheers to my fellow net intellectual!
Exactly. (hug)
Observer, I know I haven’t replied to the previous exchange, and I don’t know if I will, but I wanted to reply to a couple other points.
Abogado also touched on this topic. I know there is a great deal of evidence about the benefits of attending a Historically Black College or University (HBCU) for black students. Scholars like Walter Allen have looked at this. There is no way to deny that HBCU’s educate a number of black leaders in many areas as well as educate a large number of students in fields like the sciences.
Also, as I mentioned before there are tons of articles out there based on empirical research (both qualitative and quantitative) that show the benefits of diversity for students in higher education. There are some that focus on the classroom and others that examine the day-to-day interaction that goes on outside of the classroom. If you want to make a strong arguement based on more than just anecdotal evidence against race-conscisous admissions policies or programs targeting underrepresented minorities, I would suggest you look into some of this research… if only to be able to critique it.
Finally, I think appreciating diversity does come from taking into the backgrounds of people.
I just wanna say that I wanna be involved in the hug too. That’s what bears do.
“Well then, cheers to my fellow net intellectual!”
-Abogado
Finally, you get it, well sort of.
LOL! Pinche gueros, usaran cualesquier razon para celebrar!
No need to cheer, “homie.”
“However, an argument could be made that a black or latino, regardless of thier economic status, could offer more in the way of differing opinions in a class room that consists of over-represented whites and asians. I wouldn’t particularly want to defend this point, but I think it could be done in good faith.
-Abogado
I disagree with you on this; I would like for someone to make and defend/support this argument.
“Observer, I know I haven’t replied to the previous exchange, and I don’t know if I will…”
-cindylu
Well, I’ll take what I can get. However, I would appreciate a full and complete dialogue with you, a Chicana.
“If you want to make a strong arguement based on more than just anecdotal evidence against race-conscisous admissions policies or programs targeting underrepresented minorities, I would suggest you look into some of this research…”
-cindylu
Thank you, I may do that. Have you any links that you would share with me?
However, my anecdotal experiences, I think, are hardly an aberration. In fact, all of my friends how have attended college and/or high school have had similar experiences. Indeed, for many of them (college educated or not) the question is a no brainier! Of course people by and large “stick to their own.”
If you and I were to stroll along Bruin Walk at UCLA I am sure we would witness the de facto segregation practiced overwhelmingly by the students. Indeed, we need only look at the proliferation of extracurricular racially/ethnically clannish college groups all across the US; such as, Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlan (M.E.Ch.A.), Black Student Union (BSU), Club Latino United for Education (C.L.U.E at S.M.C.) to further highlight the anti-diversity trend among some “minorities” who attend college campuses.
However, this is not to suggest that no cultural diffusion occurs at colleges or society in general. Indeed, I have witnessed many instances of people of varying races/ethnicities interacting with on another. What I am saying is it no where as prevalent as the proponents of affirmative action would have the general public believe, and that “diversity” that is claimed to be a benefit to higher education is not even occurring as claimed by people in the pro-affirmative action camp.
But, even if racial diversity were to bring about benefits, and occur at the magnitude that some would have society believe it still, in my opinion, does not justify taking into account the race of an applicant. To do so would contradict the famous words of Dr. Martin Luther King, “I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
true.
You just did, and in the same post no less. Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m sure I no longer need to ask) but the reason you are asking a Chicana is because you believe she has something to add that a “non-Chicana” does not. Same goes in a classroom, and there is your argument.
true.
-Abogado
OK, pues. lol
“You just did, and in the same post no less.”
-Abogado
I disagree.
“Correct me if I’m wrong (I’m sure I no longer need to ask) but the reason you are asking a Chicana is because you believe she has something to add that a “non-Chicana” does not.
-Abogado
You are not completely wrong. Of course, I have never argued that cultural experiences can’t or don’t add to the growth of society, but rather that if there are any benefits as a result of “racial diversity” they would not outweigh the immoral practice of judging or discriminating, in part, on the basis of skin color;which is what affirmative action does.
Now, Mexican citizenry does not equate to “race;” and subsequently, Chicano (a US citizen of Mexican lineage), correct me if I am wrong, is not a racial classification. I guess you mean that it is the culture of the applicant that should be judged when considering his/her application to universities and not their “race” (i.e. skin color). Am I correct?
I was not seeking cindylu’s participation because of her race, but because she, being a Chicana (a supposed beneficiary of liberal policies), has (IMO) a direct and vested interest in said policies; that in no way supports your supposition that diversity is beneficial to higher education.
If “diversity” were to be needed or useful in this argument then I suppose we’d have to obtain an opinion on the matter from every culture so that the topic is fully explored. But I wonder, what could an Armenian (his/her cultural experiences) add to the discourse on affirmative action, where the “underrepresented” are primarily Black and Brown peoples?
“Same goes in a classroom”
-Abogado
Yes, if the class was covering a topic that directly or indirectly affected Chicanos then I would tend to agree with you. But what role if any would a Black’s or Chicano’s race (skin color) or culture play in discussion of matamatical theories or biology? Would you agree that one’s skin color or culture would add nothing to the discourse of the “hard” sciences?